‘Bucha changed my understanding of this war’: Katrin Eigendorf In Dialogue With Oleksandr Zinchenko
In order to comprehend the events of recent days, PEN Ukraine has launched a series of conversations entitled #DialoguesOnWar. On September 6th, Oleksandr Zinchenko, a Ukrainian journalist, held a conversation with the German journalist Katrin Eigendorf. This is a transcription of key moments from their conversation.
This conversation is supported by the U.S. Embassy in Ukraine.
By PEN Ukraine with Katrin Eigendorf and Oleksandr Zinchenko
Photo: Nick Tsybenko/Unsplash
Oleksandr Zinchenko: Katrin, if you allow me, I would like to ask the first question. Recently you wrote the book Putins Krieg – Wie die Menschen in der Ukraine für unsere Freiheit kämpfen. In your opinion, why did Putin dare to start this war?
Katrin Eigendorf: That is a difficult question. From my perspective, the war is not only against Ukraine and its existence. It has a much broader context, concerning our way of life, our system, democracy, freedom, and human rights. This is what I also try to explain to Germans. The whole establishment of the post-WWII world order is attacked by Russia. This war against Ukraine is, in fact, an attack on the Western world. Why Ukraine? Because Ukraine was the country that took the strongest and the most effective steps toward the West by trying to join the EU and NATO. This effort was also made by other countries, like Georgia, but not with the same powerful support of the population that we saw during the Revolution of Dignity in 2014. I have been following this war since its very beginning in 2014. What Putin tries to do now is to challenge the West.
Oleksandr Zinchenko: In my point of view, Putin started this so-called ‘special operation’ with a wrong perception of the world in mind. Several weeks before the full-scale invasion started, my father, who had cancer, was told that he had a couple of weeks left to live. He was in Kharkiv at that time. My family was wondering whether I, as a historian, thought that the attack would happen. Right before 1939 and German aggression against Poland, Polish economist and historian Stanisław Swianiewicz was claiming that massive amounts of troops, arms, and other military resources only happened before the upcoming aggression. On the other hand, I was wondering – what Putin was thinking? Did he really think it was possible to conquer Ukraine with only 200,000 soldiers? Ukrainian territory covers approximately 600,000 square kilometres. This is basically one Russian soldier per three square kilometres! They wouldn’t even see each other. On top of that, I was thinking about the logic behind starting the invasion in late winter. Only asphalted highways were available to the troops. They couldn’t even form orders of battle; they had to march in columns. Considering all these facts, I said that the invasion was unlikely, I gave it 80 to 20 percent of probability. My sister eventually said that in terms of risk assessment this probability was high. So we started preparing.
Katrin Eigendorf: When I saw Putin starting this war, my first thought was: “This is the end for him”. Now the question is, when will this end come? After half a year of the full-scale invasion, let us set aside positive developments and take a look at the negative impact. We have so many people dying, the economy ruined, and we have harsh winter approaching. There is a dangerous situation in Zaporizhzhya. Let me ask you this: did anything change in the mood of the population?
Oleksandr Zinchenko: For me, the start of the full-scale invasion coincided with my personal tragedy. On February 22, my father passed away due to cancer. On February 23, we said goodbye to him. On February 24, the sounds of explosions woke us up. My pain threshold was already pretty high. So, naturally, my first thought was: Putin, what an idiot. And this attitude has not changed since. As for Ukrainian society, it is difficult to generalise, but it seems to me that a significant part of Ukrainians is still highly mobilised. We feel this absolute anger towards the aggressor, and this feeling keeps our level of mobilisation high.
During the presentation of your book, you mentioned that this war is changing all of us, and you in particular. Could you please explain what has changed within you?
Katrin Eigendorf: I have been a reporter for 30 years now and I have covered many wars. Normally, when you go to war as a reporter, it affects you in some way. You see sad stories and horrible situations, but in the end, you always come back home. Most wars happening abroad do not really affect the inner situation in the country. For example, when Germany tragically lost 59 soldiers in Afghanistan, it did not change the course of the public debate. In the case of Ukraine, German politics have changed fundamentally.
Since WWII, Germany has always tried to get along with Russia, be it through media, diplomatic or economic ties. This attitude is caused by the historical role of Germany as a perpetrator that started WWII. When the full-scale invasion happened, this policy changed, so the radical and quick decision was made to put sanctions in place, break all economic ties, and provide military aid to Ukraine. For Germany, this is a big step. It was German tradition not to support other countries with weapons, especially the ones fighting against Russia.
Now we see a fundamental change in German society, and this policy is supported by the majority of the German people. But now we are in a situation where prices which everyone is paying for this war are rising. The discussion is getting harsher on how we will proceed to support Ukraine in the long run. Therefore, we really need first-hand information. That is why every time I come back to Ukraine to report. It is very important to show people what is going on in this country.
Oleksandr Zinchenko: From the Ukrainian point of view, the actions of German authorities of people in power are not really understandable. This is indeed a rare case when Germany supplies lethal weapons to another country. On the other hand, just today we all learned that German chancellor Scholz refused to provide the Ukrainian Army with tanks. Could you please try to explain this? What exactly does not allow the chancellor to send tanks to Ukraine?
Katrin Eigendorf: I am a journalist, not a spokesperson for the German government. I am also criticising its policy regarding this issue. But I will make an effort and try to explain.
You have to see Germany in its historical context. You have also to be aware of the fact that when Germany was defining its post-WWII policy towards the East, it was always having Russia in mind. It was never about Ukraine, which was perceived as a side of this big empire. Only now do we start to see what the situation in Ukraine was like. Having said that, supporting Ukraine with weapons is a big step for Germany. Germany is a very bureaucratic country. So, it took a while to make the political decision and then implement it.
Another aspect is that our military is in quite a bad state. We did not invest much in it because we felt safe. But the world has changed and the war is now taking place in the heart of Europe. To see this reality, to stick to the fact that diplomacy came to an end, for the moment being, was quite hard for Germany and the German government. Now, surprisingly, the Green Party pushes for supporting Ukraine much more than the Social Democrats.
From my point of view, it was a bad step on behalf of Germany and Chancellor Scholz in particular that he did not take the chance to visit Ukraine.
When I saw the first foreign politicians showing up in Bucha, I asked myself – why is the German chancellor not here? It was a bad decision on his part. We have a certain responsibility towards Ukraine, considering what happened not only decades ago but in recent years too, considering that Germany was supporting Russia to a great extent. When the war started in 2014, the German politicians did not really listen or see what was happening here.
Oleksandr Zinchenko: I am against this policy of Chancellor Scholz too, and it is difficult for me to understand his stance. Scholz has not been to Bucha. You, on the other hand, have. What did you feel when you were there?
Katrin Eigendorf: We went there with our ZDF team just the day after it was announced what had happened in Bucha. This trip was organised by the Ukrainian Ministry of Internal Affairs, and we had a chance to meet Volodymyr Zelensky at the end. How do I describe that feeling? I was really shocked. I have seen a lot of situations and wars, but what happened in Bucha really struck me to the core. You could see all the extent of the destruction, all the cruelty, and all nightmares that civilians faced, on one street. We saw people that were killed and tortured. Those who saw Bucha will understand… It is not only the image. It is also the smell, the little details. After seeing Bucha, Irpin, and Borodyanka, I understood quite well what this war was about. It is the war against the Ukrainian civilisation. I saw the way and extent to which the Russian army was operating. This was so shocking. Bucha changed my understanding of this war.
Oleksandr Zinchenko: Were you able to explain to yourself this degree of Russian cruelty?
Katrin Eigendorf: This behaviour is a strategy supported by the commanders. I worked in Russia in the 90s and saw the Russian army in Chechnya. I noticed their attitude towards their own people. There was this principle called dedovshchina, the reign of the eldest, which meant that young people joining the army came under the complete control of their commanders. This principle exists not only in the Russian army, but also in parts of their society. It is very inhumane.
Russia had a very short time frame to liberate itself from its cruel history. This brief gap started in 1991 and ended when Putin came to power. Essentially, this is the tradition in which Russia and the Russian population were raised over generations. I think this is one of the reasons why the Russian troops act like this. There is absolutely no respect or humane attitude in that army.
Oleksandr Zinchenko: When the full-scale invasion started, I was staying in a small town in Kyiv's suburbs with my mother. One day, the Russian troops came there, and I had to talk to them. Based on that interaction, it seems to me that there was another motive too. Ukraine has already seen this a century or so ago. They have been told for years that Ukrainians were extremely poor. They invaded Ukraine, came to our small cottage town populated mostly by middle-class people, saw the houses, and asked me: “Are you all millionaires here?”
How did we dare to live that well? I believe this was one of the reasons why Russians murdered people in Bucha, Irpin, and Borodyanka. They were trying to avenge Ukrainians for their high quality of life.
Katrin Eigendorf: When the war started in 2014, we saw many people in Kyiv carrying on with their lives as usual because the fighting was going on somewhere far away. Now I think that the war is in the middle of Ukrainian society. As a Ukrainian intellectual, how do you see your life in the next six months?
Oleksandr Zinchenko: My life will be full of work. I work for the Ukrainian PBC. At the moment, I am working on a big documentary about Ukrainian history. As for Ukrainian society in general, I think we are facing a very difficult next six months, especially around February 24. We expect this winter to be harsh. Some people might start sinking into pessimism or depression. However, we should do our best to convince everyone that no one should give up right before the victory.
Edited by Cammie McAtee
Photo: Vita Maksymets/Unsplash