‘Democracy is not a gift but a prize that has to be won over and over again, and it is worth fighting for’: Askold Melnyczuk In Dialogue with Kateryna Babkina
In order to comprehend the events of recent days, PEN Ukraine has launched a series of conversations entitled #DialoguesOnWar. On October 4, Ukrainian author Kateryna Babkina held a conversation with the American writer of Ukrainian origin Askold Melnyczuk. This is a transcription of key moments from their conversation.
This conversation is supported by the U.S. Embassy in Ukraine.
By PEN Ukraine with Kateryna Babkina and Askold Melnyczuk
Photo: Valentyn Chernetskyi/Unsplash
Askold Melnyczuk: Kateryna, what a pleasure to meet you. I have heard so much about you. As a person who is speaking about what is happening in Ukraine, I am wondering if you can give us all a bit of an update on the situation.
Kateryna Babkina: Hello, everybody. It is a pleasure to be here. Thank you, Askold. There are two levels of life in Ukraine now. On the first one, people are trying to keep life going. If you briefly look at their Instagram profiles, you might forget for a moment that the war is still going on, even though these people are receiving awful news every day. On the other level, every day Ukrainians are dying, and every day Russian atrocities on the liberated territories are being discovered. It heavily influences both people who are in Ukraine, and Ukrainians who are abroad, like me.
I have a small child. In March I fled to Poland, and then temporarily moved to London. I did it because I cannot guarantee my daughter’s safety. Given what has happened in Bucha and Irpin, moving to the west of Ukraine or abroad was probably the best solution for Ukrainian mothers.
What is happening in Ukraine right now is so unacceptable, so impossible. When I talk to people from abroad, not only do I experience Ukraine fatigue from their side, but I also see that it is difficult for them to accept the fact that the atrocities really are happening. We have to keep talking about that. Nobody likes a messenger who brings bad news, but these events are important to understand.
Askold Melnyczuk: It is essential indeed. I have a friend, an American literary critic, who speaks about the myth of the blue sky. I am just outside Boston, although today is a cloudy day, very often it is beautiful and sunny here, and things are so peaceful on the streets. The immediate reality around us is so unlike what people in Ukraine are experiencing that it becomes a kind of cognitive dissonance to try and accept it.
Seven months in, I still wake up and find it hard to believe that the war really is happening. It is the irrationality of the situation that makes it so very difficult to accept it. Therefore, it is essential to create platforms enabling people who are now aware of Ukraine to understand the radical difference in daily experience between here and there.
I think that people are naturally empathetic. If they are able to hear what is happening, they will respond. And I think that a great number of them are responding in the United States. I do not know what it is that you are hearing in London. I spoke to various Ukrainian writers who have said that the conversation is different in Europe and the United States.
Kateryna Babkina: It depends on the people to whom you are talking. Generally, I meet people who are empathetic, very supportive, and very pro-Ukrainian. But it is only true of those who are rather educated in history and politics, and aware of what Russia has done to Georgia, Chechnya, and other countries.
However, I am starting to hear more and more often the narrative shared on Twitter recently by Elon Musk. “We just have to find a way to end the war. Ukraine should remain neutral, Russia should keep the occupied Crimea.” Are we expected to give away the homes of those born in Crimea and the east of Ukraine just so that people in Europe do not pay expensive energy bills?
This will not stop Russia. Moscow has been committing these crimes for years in many different countries. It will carry on if it is not stopped.
Askold Melnyczuk: I think of a line by Bertolt Brecht who wrote: “He who fights, can lose. He who does not fight has already lost.”
It is a fact that Ukrainians have stood up for themselves. They knew enough to stand up to a bully because they have experienced bullying before. Ukrainians prioritised freedom over slavery, and liberty over serfdom. They have stood up for democracy worldwide and have become emblems and champions of what it means.
Ukraine has become an inspiration for many of us. I work with a political group here in the US called Writers for Democratic Action. We have some 3000 members nationwide and many across Europe as well, and it is our goal to preserve democracy here in the US, which itself is under siege. One of the interesting elements of the conversation I discovered here in the US is that a very specific segment of – I hate to generalise but I just have to say it – the Republican Party has been quietly supporting Putin. Perhaps, not even quietly anymore, but rather increasingly loudly and proudly encouraging Ukraine to give up.
We have come to take for granted the idea that you can criticise the government and institutions here in the US. This is a privilege not enjoyed in Russia but experienced in Ukraine. It is precisely for that freedom and that right that people are fighting. Democracy is not a gift but a prize that has to be won over and over again, and it is worth fighting for.
Kateryna Babkina: What Ukraine is fighting for now is not only those high values and ideas.
Every day here in London I take my 2-year-old to the playground. She has a friend named Evie. Evie is a surrogate daughter who has two dads, who can live their lives freely and be a happy couple. This is impossible in Russia. Russians will never be able to enjoy just being themselves.
Ukraine is a buffer separating the West from this world of violence where people are leading shitty lives and are ready to sacrifice themselves and suffer for abstract high ideals. Ideas of democracy and any kind of freedom are irrelevant to them.
Askold Melnyczuk: The Russian state has become not only an ideology but a religious faith.
We have talked about how Ukraine is being reconsidered by the world. Twenty years ago I gave a speech at the Taras Shevchenko National University of Kyiv. At that point, Jonathan Safran Foer's Everything is Illuminated had just come out. There had also been quite a wonderful novel by Claire Messud that had Ukraine as a character.
Back then, Ukraine was culturally considered a terra incognita. I know it from my own experience. In grad school, I was often translating poems from Ukrainian. Some students said to me that for them Ukrainian language sounded just like Russian. Then, however, I remember talking to Joseph Brodsky in Ukrainian. He was speaking Russian, and neither of us could understand each other. He said: “Askold, this is America, let’s just speak English.” But he certainly knew that there were distinctions.
I wonder what you think about how Ukraine is beginning to emerge culturally.
Kateryna Babkina: I have to confess that my own perception of Ukraine has changed rapidly since the beginning of the full-scale invasion. Mistakenly, I used to think that we had a weak army, that we were rather poor as a country, and that people have become rather passive as a result of the Soviet past where nothing depended on the ordinary people. This perception has certainly changed.
People are ready to support the state with their own hands and money if it needs help. That is probably the first example in history when people are funding the army with their private funds. Each of us is our state. All of us are Ukraine.
The amount of money we are raising and donating makes me realise that we are not really poor as a country. We are earning money not only to maintain our living but also to support our army.
Everyone is contributing to our victory in their own way.
Now that more and more people are discovering Ukrainians in person, they realise that many of us are highly qualified and educated. They are finding out more cool things about our country every day, and it does not surprise them anymore. The world is discovering high-quality Ukrainian cultural products: cinema, art, music, and literature.
However, the price we pay for this recognition is too high. I would much rather prefer to stay less published and [less] recognised.
Askold Melnyczuk: I know exactly what you mean. I have friends, political scientists, who are saying: “Look at all the publicity Ukraine is getting, look at all the press!” I am thinking to myself, I would sooner have anonymity rather than all these deaths and slaughter.
We have to accept the fact that this is what has happened. We have to come to terms with this reality quickly and respond appropriately.
I entirely agree with you that it was an improved education system in Ukraine that created your generation. It was the first generation to be politically free and financially capable of going outside the borders and working all around the world, travelling, learning other languages, and experiencing other cultures directly.
Kateryna Babkina: We also used to be the first fearless generation who was growing up in a rather safe environment. That was before they started shooting at protesters on Maidan in 2014.
Now I hope that my daughter’s generation is going to be entirely fearless. She is two years old now, so she does not really understand what is happening. She enjoyed the nights in the bomb shelters so much because people were bringing their dogs there. She loves dogs, and she has never seen so many dogs, cats, and other pets gathered in one place before. My daughter was the happiest child ever. She did not understand why we left the house, but she was happy to have new friends, a new playground and toys.
If we succeed to end this war completely, our children are going to be the first generation of completely free and fearless Ukrainians.
Askold Melnyczuk: One reason for that is the example that your generation is setting by fighting for freedom. It had the chance to look at the past and to confront the history that had not been examined before, like the history of the Holocaust and Holodomor in Ukraine. When you begin to look squarely at the past, you can begin to understand the present much more clearly.
I do worry about one thing though, and for me, there is a personal aspect to it. The part that horrified me was seeing my parents’ lives all over again.
My parents grew up during WWII, my grandfather fought in the army in WWI, first for the Austro-Hungarian army, and later for the Sichovi Striltsi. Then my family had to flee Peremyshl, where they had been living, and they came to the US. The process of becoming a refugee is complicated. The consequences of war and violence are passed on for generations.
In my parents’ generation, post-traumatic stress was never dealt with. And we are much more aware of it now. The post-war period has to come with an awareness of how to start talking about the traumatic experience and healing from it. I hope this process starts now, even before the war ends, and will continue afterwards. All of you experienced trauma, whether you were on the frontline or had to leave your homes. It is about being conscious of the reality that has happened and facing it as soon as possible rather than denying it.
I want to ask you about your plans moving forward. You are in London, and you have a book that is coming out this week. I wonder how you are looking ahead to the future?
Kateryna Babkina: I do not build long-term plans anymore. Of course, I am looking forward to coming back home, like everyone is, but I am not sure when it is going to be possible. I want to give my daughter safety.
I plan to start talking about the war more. I have just finished a book which is going to be published relatively soon in Ukrainian and Polish. It is a story written for young adults about what has happened since February 24.
In the Soviet Union and shortly after its collapse, we had a very flat and modified version of history tailored to the needs of the party. We did not have the opportunity to talk about the huge trauma experienced by the people. Only in the 80s did Ukrainians start writing about Holodomor and the Holocaust, WWII, and Chornobyl, as well as being part of the Soviet Union which was by itself a traumatic experience. Only now have we gained the voice powerful enough.
We still have not dealt with our past, and we have a lot to talk about. This is our job as writers, intellectuals, and artists.
Photo: Vladislav Chubar/Unsplash